Episode 7 #PassTheMic: Bringing your cultural identity into career coaching

‍Listen to it on Spotify above, Apple podcast, via AccessMedia or read the transcript below.

This conversation is with Andrew Tui. He is a podcaster and a career practitioner who loves coffee and a ukulele jam. In this podcast, we dive deeper into Andrew’s Samoan-Chinese heritage and his connections to faith and the rainbow community. Andrew shares some practical insights and advice that organisations can and should take when it comes to equity, diversity and inclusion, especially around Pacific youth.

‍

Andrew: Thank you for the invitation. I'm super excited and a bit nervous as well… I think it's always funny when it's flipped to the other side: now it's about sharing my insights [laughs]. I love the kaupapa and what you're aspiring to do! 

Elina: Let's dive into this, shall we? Tell us about yourself, what’s your background and what were maybe some of your cultural influences growing up? 

Andrew: Hi, I'm Andrew John Tui. I identify as Samoan-Chinese and I was born and raised in Tamaki Makaurau, South Auckland. My family comes from villages of {name} and also {name} in Samoa. I've also got ancestry in China, of course. My dad's family, his granddad or my great grandfather, grew up in {insert} with his brothers. During the First World War, he fought alongside the Mali battalion, to represent New Zealand and, thankfully survived. Through that, he was able to get passage to New Zealand in the 1940s. They were part of this big first wave of Pacific Islanders coming into New Zealand.

My mum grew up in Samoa with a very strong Samoan values. She had many adopted brothers and sisters, many of whom I thought were her blood siblings, but later realised that they weren't, it's such an Island thing [laughs].

I feel incredibly proud of those roots from mom and dad. And I guess for them it was hard, because back then it was a struggle to raise your family. By the time my two sisters and I were born, mum and dad, were working night jobs, day jobs, factories, cleaning. Mum used to clean at night and come home late. And I always remember that, she would bring home a tub of cream rice and it was such a treat. So for me, a big part of my values is service. Mum and dad taught us work ethic and to provide for your family. It was so common to see mum or dad not only provide for us but also provide for our wider family. 

Even though I didn't grow up speaking the language (which I guess played on my mind many years later), I did grow up knowing the strong Samoan values, especially around respect for your elders. And I think it was also around dance in music: watching my nana get up and do a dance and everyone clapping and getting up. It's almost like those are the things that reminded us of where we came from and who we are. 

As a side note, in terms of my Chinese heritage, I don't know as much. But I'm slowly learning more about that side. So many of the Samoan-Chinese people came from the Catan regions in China. 

I also grew up in the Catholic Church. That's quite a big part of for many Pacific Island families. But I think I quickly realised that I felt a bit different. I went through a period where I knew my Pacific Island side very well, growing up in a community that was very strong, going to a school with lots of Pacific Island kids. And then I go to high school, and then all the sudden and people say: “Are you Chinese?”, “Are you Argentinian?”. And it was really confusing. Because all of a sudden, I'm like, “Well, actually, who am I?” And then some people say: “But your English is so good”. And I'm like, “What do you mean?” [laughs].

I also started to feel embarrassed as well, not being able to speak Samoan felt quite shameful or growing up in South Auckland. But, of course, as an older adult, now I can understand more of that. And it's so funny, because when I got to uni, it was like “Oh, give me psychology. Give me sociology!” I think partly, subconsciously, I was wanting to know more about myself.

Elina: There is such a common thread uniting a lot of ethnic people’s experiences. Especially around  feelings of embarrassment, shame, questioning your identity. You talked about service and how those values shaped you a lot and what your work ethic. How do you think that, alongside the cultural questioning, shaped what kind of path you chose in life and kind of person you have become later in adulthood?

Andrew: On the surface, I kind of always knew that I wanted to do something to help others. But at the same time, there was also pressure to do something better than what mum and dad did. I was the first in my family to go university and my dad would say “go and be an anaesthetist or become a doctor”. And I was like: “Dad, I hate blood. I hate science.” [laughs] 

So they suggested I study business and back then, I kind of wanted to please my family so I went to study business and accounting. When I actually started accounting at uni, of course, what happened? I hated it. And then from there, I realised that no, I need to trust my gut. I've worked hard. I ended up pursuing psychology and management and absolutely loved it. I naturally gravitated towards people from different ethnic backgrounds and other minorities. And I subconsciously made a beeline for those who I felt were probably feeling a bit more marginalised. 

Elina: And Andrew, what do you do now? 

Andrew: I did my big career shift 2006-2007, from working in corporate admin to becoming a careers counsellor, essentially. And I think that career path which has spanned 12+ years, I will describe as being a very humanistic, personalised vocation where I help people to develop and thrive. It's very much around, developing people, working one on one to help them think about their career goals and needs, thinking about developing talent, thinking about how you can find work and discover more about yourself. 

Elina: Now if you think about yourself in the recent years, what does like your cultural identity mean to you? And how does it intertwine maybe with other parts of how you identify yourself?

Andrew: I feel a lot more ease with my cultural identity now. There's a little bit of stigma about how Samoan you are. But I think the part of me is okay with knowing what I'm comfortable with. In my work, I can express myself by working with Pacific Island people in a way that feels satisfying. I'm really comfortable with how identify with a rainbow community. As a gay male, I grew up feeling a bit more conservative about it and feeling like “Oh, my God, how does work?” to now being happily married. We have a cat. [laughs] To me, it feels funny saying this, but you've kind of feel like you're role modelling in a really positive way, especially for young Pacific youth or any youth who might just feel a bit different or feel that they haven't quite seen people who can reflect who they could be just that make sense.

Elina: When we talk about ethnic identity or person of colour identity, it's such a broad term. Sometimes people might feel that those terms maybe othering. When you hear the word ethnic person vs kiwi - in New Zealand context, what comes to mind for you? 

‍Andrew: I love being kiwi, don't get me wrong, but I feel like, some people still place special value in it. Kiwi is actually perceived as someone who might be the Pakeha Kiwi in that value set, when we know that's not true. So for me, I didn't grow up with Pakeha values. So for me being kiwi is more around how we interact with each other, our collective attitudes and hobbies. I guess the more old school thinking would say that being a kiwi means going to the BBQ and having your alcoholic drink, and talking about sports and… not talking about your feelings. [laughs] Whereas actually, I don’t actually identify with any of these things I'll be at the BBQ eating. [laughs]. And I know all the other stuff that is cool about being a kiwi like having really cool camaraderie, being curious about people and having amazing diverse food at those BBQs.

Elina: Andrew, I’m really curious to hear from you about the space of diversity, equity and inclusion. This topic has become so popular, and it’s almost used as a buzzword these days. When we truly talk about that diversity side, and different identities. You balance Chinese and Pacific identities within you, what comes up for you when we talk about indigenous and migrant relationships?

Andrew: For me, personally, I really honour the Treaty. And I'm so glad I learned about this in History at school. It’s about bloody time, it's compulsory in schools. Because all sudden, my perspective changed. For a long time, I used to feel excluded, because I always felt it was the relationship between Maori and Pakeha. And what I learned is that its relationship between Maori and everyone else. And I love that. 

Elina: When I came to New Zealand as a migrant at 16, I wasn’t exposed or learned anything about the Treaty or Maori relationships or what our place is here. I probably wasn't even in right headspace to know what questions to ask or where to start. What have you seen or want to see more of in regards to that connection of migrant communities with Maori or just Te Tiriti education and honouring here in NZ?

‍Andrew: Hand on heart, I honestly believe that it comes down to leadership. I honestly believe that until we get a diverse range of leaders at every level that are really influential, we won’t see effective change. I think back to when I was at uni and did not really see role models in the workplaces. When I was working for Air New Zealand, we maybe had a few Pacific Island people in management. 

Just one example, what I'm liking about our current government is that the Labour Party have quite a strong mix of people of different ethnic backgrounds. I am heartened by moves like that. And I think that all of the parties should be thinking about it. 

Also I think what needs to happen is culturally responsive services. Even, for example, Pacific people don’t tend to access services if they experienced someone who might come across as quite cold or, you know, a very Western way of doing things. 

I think in terms of representation, we have MPs like Chloe Swarbrick or Daisy Chaining who represent Botany. These are young, dynamic people, smart people, from different backgrounds, with the credentials, and the talent. Even the way they write their comms, it's in a very inclusive language. I also admire people like if you're so Collins, so he's a sits on the Auckland Council. He's very open and honest about ideas about race and what needs to be improved. Even though some might think he's been too outspoken, he is very professionally saying: “These are the issues and this is how we move our diverse city forward.” He's not creating nasty rhetoric. But I also love places like Mental Health Foundation, which is using a lot more Maori frameworks, Pacific frameworks, resources and different images. They're intentional. I am also really excited about the Gen Zs who are coming through in these leadership positions. Let's let them have fun! Because I think what they have to offer will look very different to what we've seen.

Elina: I love that. Sometimes I question whether just being outspoken is enough, like, what is the action that follows? And yes, we do need to walk the talk but also being in places of power, being outspoken and acknowledging the issues is such a massive thing. I have spoken to so many organisations through my Story work around diversity, equity & inclusion, that are not being honest about bias. I feel like, as soon as leadership does that, as soon as they say: Hey, I know I'm not perfect, and we have issues and let's work on them, it’s such a big step. If we thought about organisations, institutions that maybe you're working with, when it comes to students progressing from university, what would you want to see them do more?

Andrew: It's taking the attitude and philosophy that people come first, therefore, how can we better support people? Whether it’s a more authentic recruitment process or assisting people in a way that is culturally more relevant. I think it's been open to those types of tools or techniques and processes. Even for managers who might be developing staff, what is their process to build cultural capital and cultural intelligence? If people can get beyond that initial bias, they will quickly see that there's actually a lot of talent out there. 

Also, culturally, some people don't instantly wave their flag and say “Hey, hire me!”, especially in Pacific culture. You are typically more humble in your approach, or you might not really pour out a lot of yourself in your answers. So again, I think there is an opportunity to do things differently. So for example, in recruitment, there is talk about using other ways of assessment like creating videos, stories, and painting themselves in a different way. And you need people in those hiring roles who have that awareness. 

Elina: And Andrew, how does one build culture capability?

‍Andrew: You know, I recently interviewed this wonderful woman, Deborah Walton. She's an African American and she talked a lot about how it's firstly, acknowledging differences and starting small. For example. It’s sitting down in the canteen with a coffee and I'm just gonna ask you a bit more about yourself, what do you do? how do you celebrate things? And then, of course, it's being intentional about your conversations too - asking better questions to get to know someone, to find out about their goals. Having those tools that focus more on values and different cultures. Rather than asking, “Well, how do you feel about submitting these targets or these KPIs?”

A lot of companies got existing capabilities within and they can tap into their people. You might have someone who knows a lot about people development or psychology. But they're also consultants can help you with your journey. So draw upon those people and community, you know? What better way to learn about differences than from people who know what those differences are? And there's no shame in it. I think what I noticed some companies don’t know how to approach Te Tiriti / Maori relationships. And to me, it's not enough now. We all have the ability to access people and information. Ask your employees questions! 

Elina: And probably one thing I would add to your points, Andrew, is that I think when you're learning from someone: consultants or communities, you need to resource them as well. Right? I think it's a common thing that people to reach for those marginalised groups and ask them to do the heavy emotional labour and be that spokesperson. And because people are usually genuinely passionate about that, they want to contribute. But how do we resource these people? 

Andrew: Thank you for bringing that up and you're 1,000% correct! There's been a lot of articles in the media that talk about this very issue and, and burnout as well for Maori. And it's true, I've worked in organisations where I've seen it and experienced it, where it does border on tokenism and when you're on the receiving end of it, it doesn't feel good. Because you feel a bit used. It’s like you're the person that could do the karakia. Well, you don't want to open it up to everyone else first? So you make a really good point: these skills and capabilities need to be valued and compensated.

Elina: And when it comes to hiring for the right skills, I would always ask why not hire for the right experiences? These are lived experiences and need to be valued accordingly if you want better culture, inclusion and better problem-solving. Before we go into quickfire, I wanted to ask you about the idea of being a model or “successful” ethnic person. We hear often about “trailblazers” and high expectations that get placed upon people. You have to do so much more than the mainstream culture to stand out. Because you work with students, is it something you notice through your work at all? 

‍Andrew: If I talk from the perspective of the Pacific, the older mentality was: if you get to university, that's actually the goal, you've made it. But now, a lot more of those kids are going to university, but the stakes are getting higher. All of a sudden, people expect them to be an entrepreneur or a business person and really blitz it. I have noticed that there has been increasing expectation on all the young Pacific people, even with professionalism in sport, because some people have done so well in sports like rugby & rugby league. A lot more kids are aspiring to do that as a career. And we know that percentage of people who make it is so small. 

I remember when I was a career advisor at school, a kid got injured in Year 13. And then I noticed that he was just really quiet. I asked him what his plans were for next year and he goes: I want to come back to school again next year. He said he wants to have another go at playing rugby, so the talent scouts could see him at school. It's like, man, these types of expectations we place on these kids…

Elina: OK, Andrew this has been wonderful! Let’s close off with some quick-fire questions, shall we? To start with: what’s your favourite dish that you might have good memories about?

Andrew: There is this really common and popular Samoan dish: chop suey. And it's quite nice because it's got a Chinese heritage as well. I'm biased and I think my mom makes it the best. A lot of soy sauce, a lot of flavours, a lot of ginger, and onion! It feels like home, it feels like comfort. There are places especially out South that do sell it. But usually, just ask an auntie and uncle or a friend at work who can get you some. [laughs]

Elina: If you could be the main character in the movie or a TV show? What would it be? 

Andrew: I would love to be a character in an X-Men movie. I think it was founded on trying to help humanity and to help people who feel different.

Elina: The “service” thread continues, I see! If you could propose one policy to New Zealand Parliament or to like an organisation at that level, what would that be?

Andrew: I think it would be about access to resources. I would love it if they could make education free or really subsidise it for people because again, the heart of progress is education.

Elina: Awesome. And last question, Andrew, what makes you feel empowered, like a badass? 

Andrew: I honestly think I'm the biggest nerd but I feel cool. [laughs] When I'm doing stuff where I thrive and like this interview today makes me feel really elated. I love working on my podcast. I love when I'm volunteering. I love it when I'm hanging out with friends. And I love creativity. So I think all that stuff makes a lovely melting pot of it.

Thank you so much for listening, folks. We've recorded this conversations from the comfort of our homes, you know, the global pandemic at all. So we really hope you felt that cosy listening to your friends over the phone kind of vibe. If you haven't already, check out our remaining series with 14 other incredible conversations. Share, Subscribe, send to someone who might benefit from either feeling seen or you know or learning more about ethnic voices in Aotearoa. This wonderful podcast has been brought to you by collaboration of Belong Aotearoa, Storyo, Planet FM and Sport Waitakere. With thanks to our funder, the Auckland Council Regional Development Fund. Follow us on Instagram @passthemic.aotearoa and @story.co And until next time.